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Natural Consequences

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Started 1 year ago by Jenny
Latest reply from Jenny

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Jenny
Member

My sister and I watched the all day workshop this weekend and I have a question about habits and natural consequences. Sonya talked about a child (older) leaving their coat on the floor, but she never gave the natural consequence for that offense. If I remind them to pick up their coat, the brain connection being made is "Do what mom says..." not "pick up after myself". She used the example of the park and a child forgetting their shoes having to sit in the van, but I cannot come up with a natural consequence that does not involve a coat staying on my floor or me having to remind or pick up.

I really need to work on habit formation with my children (ages 2,4,6,8,10,12). I spend a big part of my day "reminding". I told them recently they have no incentive to remember on their own because I come along and remind them constantly. I have trained them well allright.

I watched a documentary on the monks at Clear Creek Monastery last week and as they showed a monk watching over his herd, I distinctly thought, he can live in his present moment without wondering if he made his bed, or hung up his towel because he has good habits already formed. Then I came across a beautiful quote in For the Children's Sake..."Childen love routines. It frees their attention for the activity at hand."

Posted 1 year ago # Report Post
LindseyD.
Member

Hmmm...I suppose you could not allow them to wear their coat next time they go outside...

Ok, not really.

We have had issues in the past with leaving shoes, clothes, pjs, etc. on the floor. The natural consequence I came up with was having the child who left his shoes on the floor "practice" putting them away 10 times. So, if I see shoes on the floor, I call the child in, ask him/her if they forgot to do something, and usually get the response, "Oh! My shoes! I forgot!" I will then tell him/her that because they keep forgetting to pick their shoes up, they will have to pick them up, put them away, get them back down, and do it all over again 10 times.

I did the same thing with my dd5 who kept knocking the couch pillows onto the floor and then walked all over them. I told her to keep the pillows on the couches, but she didn't obey and was soon walking all over them again. So, she had to pick up the pillows 10 times, and put them back on the couch. She hasn't knocked the pillows off again!

I think the kids see the nonsense and frivolity in having to repeat something so pointless over and over again, so they make their minds up to do as their supposed to so they can avoid the repeated pointlessness.

HTH,

Lindsey

Posted 1 year ago # Report Post
missceegee
Member

At our house, we use a Redemption Box for items left out. My husband and I pick them up without comment and deposit them in the box (a laundry basket in a closet). When they miss their items, they can purchase them out of the box at a cost of $0.10 - $0.25 per item. Every few weeks, we go through the entire box & unwanted items are purged from the house. They are required to purchase necessary items when needed - shoes, school books, etc. They are perfect at it, but we don't nag & they dislike spending $ on something they already own, so it's very effective.

just one idea,

Christie

Posted 1 year ago # Report Post
LindseyD.
Member

Christie,

That is a super idea! I just got Spend, Save, Give jars for the kids today, so that they will have a better way to keep track of their money. I think I'm going to use your idea! Thanks, as always!

Lindsey

Posted 1 year ago # Report Post
suzukimom
Member

What about kids that are too young for an allowance though?

Posted 1 year ago # Report Post
LindseyD.
Member

Our kids don't receive an "allowance". They're on commission. (If you're familiar with Dave Ramsey at all, he talks extensively about commissions.) Basically, if they do the chores on their chore charts and any other extra chores I assign throughout the week, they get paid. Our kids are 5 and 6 and receive .10 per chore. Anything that is left undone or incomplete does not count when "payday" comes. My kids have the opportunity to earn $3 per week, if they do every chore with promptly, excellently, and joyfully. If those conditions aren't met, it's .10 off their paycheck (which is actually cash).

suzukimom, how young are your kids? Dave Ramsey is confident that even a child as young as 3 can see money piling up in a Mason jar and get excited about it. I just bought Spend, Save, Give jars today so that we can better teach our kids how to more wisely manage their money. Both caught the concept quickly.

Christie, my husband was totally on board with the Redemption Box! Thanks for the great idea!

Posted 1 year ago # Report Post
missceegee
Member
For our family, we choose not to tie chores and allowance together. Chores are done because they are a necessary part of family life and we're all part of the family. We use allowance, simply to teach them about the proper use of money. Now, with that said, we would consider docking their pay if we had attitude or other issues, but that hasn't happened as of yet.

We use these 4 compartment piggy banks which I love! We had them sign a contract agreeing to our terms which includes a "NO Loans Clause."

Until this year, we paid $0.10/year of age, this year we increased it to $0.50/year of age, but we also increased our expectations of what they would use the money for.
- 9yo = $4.50
- 6yo = $3
- 3yo = $0.25 into a basic piggy bank & she does get excited about seeing it go in
Expectations: If the family goes out to dinner and they want dessert, they buy it. If we go to a movie (EXTREMELY RARE since there are so few worth seeing), they buy their treats. If they want a toy and it isn't birthday or Christmas, they save up and buy it. They are expected to buy/create gifts for their siblings, grandparents, and parents at Christmas time, so they plan for this, too.
- 10% is Giving (They can choose to give at church or to missions or a special project.)
- 10% is Savings (Short term savings - a toy, gifts for family at Christmas, etc.)
- 20% is Investment (Long term savings - they don't touch and we put in their investment acct. a couple of times per year.)
- 60% is Spending (Whatever they choose and whenever they choose.)
It's been great. They've never had the gimmes simply because we didn't allow begging in the store, but this is really helping them to learn to manage money well. If they choose a $1 toy from the dollar store that breaks that day, well, they've learned a good lesson. Recently, the two oldest both wanted a package of those silly band bracelets at $5 for 24, but they decided to spend $2.50 each instead and share a pack. Again, a good lesson learned.

My 6yo really wanted the light saber from Target until he had enough money to buy it, now he just wants to save his money until he finds something he really wants. Our 9yo wants a horse, we told her when she can buy and board one, go for it. Who knows, she might be able to do it on her allowance when she's 50 or so.

Anyway, this is what works in our house.

Lindsey, glad you like the Redemption Box. I forget where I learned about it, but it's a great tool for our parenting tool boxes!

Blessings,

Christie
Posted 1 year ago # Report Post
LindseyD.
Member
I agree with you about not connecting chores and money. This is why we were so hesitant for so long about allowing our kids to earn money for their chores. We are hard-core Dave Ramsey groupies, and this was the one principle we had a hard time implementing. The reason we decided to get on-board with it is because our children were having a hard time understanding why Daddy had to go to work every day. It was so hard for them to accept that he was at work when they woke up in the morning and wanted him to be home with us. We thought it would be a good way for them to understand that Daddy is responsible for taking care of his family and earning money to pay for our home, car, clothes, food, and entertainment if they had to earn money for the things they wanted. My husband also works two jobs and is gone a lot, and it was very difficult for them to grasp why he wasn't home with us.

They have been doing chores for two solid years without any payment whatsoever until recently. Thankfully, we don't have the 'gimmes' either. Since this is a natural consequence question and we've sort of gotten off track, I will try to redirect.

Jenny, I would say that if you're reminding the children to pick up and put away all day long, take Christie's idea and start "repossessing" their belongings. If they don't currently receive commissions or an allowance, perhaps you could come up with a creative way for them to earn some money. That way, they have a way to pay for their repossessed items. Other natural consequences that we've used are specific to each situation, so I'll list a few:
- When bedtime was becoming a struggle and the kids weren't obeying quickly when told to put on pjs, brush teeth, etc., I denied them a special surprise I had been planning if they did as they were told, when they were told. It only took two nights of me saying, "Sorry, I was going to allow you to stay up 30 extra minutes and watch a video, but you didn't obey quickly when I asked you to brush your teeth. Maybe next time you'll obey", and they have done much better. By the way, they didn't know beforehand that I was going to allow this special treat. I don't bribe for obedience.
- The other night, I told my dd5 to pick out a book for me to read to her and then take the book to bed with her. When I walked in her room, she was sitting on the floor, playing with a magnet book. I had to say very sorrowfully, but sternly, "I'm sorry you didn't obey and pick your book and hop in bed like I asked you to. I'm not going to be able to read to you tonight. Tomorrow night you can try again." She hasn't repeated that offense again.
- When a meal is served and children get picky or don't eat, they go hungry until the next meal or snack, no exceptions. I don't remind them to eat, I don't make them try anything. If they don't eat when everyone else eats, they go hungry. Period. Also, I do not offer dessert as an incentive to eat dinner. "If you'll eat your food, then you can have a brownie" is not allowed at our house.
- Sometimes I get nervous when I drive or if traffic is heavier than usual and I'll ask the kids to lower their voices or be quiet altogether so I can concentrate. If they do not obey, they have to put their hand over their mouth until we arrive at our destination or until I think I can trust them to obey completely.
- For major "mouth" offenses (i.e. harsh words, attitude, disrespect) it's vinegar on the tongue. I also explain that what that vinegar tastes like is how their words sound coming out of their mouth, and if you don't like the taste of the vinegar, what makes you think we want to hear unkind/harsh/disrespectful words?
- For schoolwork, like copywork, if I can see that a child is not doing his best but trying to rush, our motto is "Do it nice or do it twice". If not done with excellence, it gets done again. I have not had a child do copywork over in a really long time!
That's all I can think of right now. Hope that answers your original questions, although I am glad we got off on the allowance/commissions discussion. Good stuff!
Posted 1 year ago # Report Post
missceegee
Member
Great re-direct Lindsey and good points about helping your kids understand why Daddy is away. I like your explanation re. "Do it nice or do it twice." and the one about the vinegar, too.

Some of our natural/logical consequences...
- Misuse of furniture (standing on, etc) = loss of furniture use for a while
- Forget to take out the trash = wash out the trashcans (hasn't happened)
- Fail to remove "stuff" from the van = can no longer take "stuff" in the van for a while
- Picky eating = same food offered next meal or snack time, when hungry enough, they will eat
- Not keeping bureau drawers neat = have the drawer dumped totally out to be refolded
- Failing to hang up bath towel after use = drip dry after next shower (only one child did this and only once)
HTH,

Christie
Posted 1 year ago # Report Post
Sara B.
Member

We do a commission based system, as well, rather than just "allowance." We are also Dave Ramsey fans, so we have a giving, saving, and spending bank for each of them. 10% giving (teaching them to tithe), 50% savings (though I like the idea of splitting this one into short-term and long-term), and 40% spending (they don't spend much yet, but they do use this to save up for a special toy or whatnot). We don't give them a lot: $.25 for "extra" chores, and $.10 for "regular" chores (our oldest is 7). After reading this thread, though, I may actually get a special jar of my own for each of them, and as they do their chores through the week, put their money in there. Then when they get out of line, or owe from the Redemption Box (see comment below), they can see their stash going down.

LOVE the Redemption Box idea! May have to implement that..... My kids love to leave stuff laying around. :-/

Oh, and Lindsey, I love your idea of doing copywork completely over again. I can definitely see how they'd get that the first time it happened! LOL

Posted 1 year ago # Report Post
suzukimom
Member

Lindsey:

My children are 6 (almost 7), 4, 2, and newborn.

We don't pay for chores to be done either, and as yet, none of the kids get an allowance, although the oldest will start getting one soon (probably on his birthday...) My husband didn't overly believe in allowances either but he has reconsidered, and he is on board (I think).    He does seem to think that if one gets an allowance they all have to, but I don't see it a big problem having an allowance being something they get once they are a certain age...

I tried having a redemption box type idea for Lego (my idea - I'd pick up Lego that was laying around.... and probably end up giving it to them as birthday/christmas gifts.... LOL.   However, I gave up. Dad gave them back the Lego I had collected - and now they own so much Lego that it would be a LOT of Lego before they would even notice! (And their Dad's opinion is that you can never have too much Lego...)

One of the problems I've been having with Toys and stuff is that most of the toys are shared, and also the bedroom is shared.... so in a way, none of the kids take responsibility for any of the stuff because the room isn't theirs, and in a way the toys aren't either. (Just thinking it through...)   They have had so many toys taken away from them not picking them up.... but although I have given away a bunch of it, there is other stuff I won't give away because there are younger kids that will want it eventually. I don't want to end up buying it again.... And they still don't pick up their toys....

Anyway - the redemption box is a great idea - just need to figure out how they would "pay" to get stuff out.

Posted 1 year ago # Report Post
havefaithplease
Member

I like the Redemption box idea too. Our boys also share a room and toys. We do not give an allowance. The boys have opportunities to earn money here and there. I was thinking though that they would be able to earn back their items from the box by doing extra chores. I could have a list of chores that would equal so much money and they could earn it back that way. For instance... your cleats cost $2 (he needs those for football, you can bet he would earn those back right away!). You can scrub the siding on the house for $2. Would that work for you suzukimom?

Posted 1 year ago # Report Post
havefaithplease
Member

Or don't even have money associated with the box, just the chores. Sorry just thinking further here! LOL

Blessings,

Carrie

Posted 1 year ago # Report Post
LindseyD.
Member

Carrie,

Great idea to have chores associated with "buying back" stuff!

Christie/Sara B.,

I forget where I came up with "Do it nice or do it twice". It seems like I read about it somewhere, but can't remember... At first, I only used it for copywork because my ds would hurry through his writing toward the end of the selection. I would point out to him that the words at the beginning of the sentence were so much nicer than those toward the end. After a few times of completely re-doing his copywork, he has yet to get sloppy with it again. I think I may have had to implement the "do it twice" consequence two or three times over the entire school year! We now use that saying with many things: folding clothes, making beds, brushing teeth, cleaning rooms. It's a great way to remind children that they must have an attitude of excellence in everything they do, no matter how small.

Jenny,

I hope we've given you some helpful natural consequences. I used to have a really hard time with this one too!

Posted 1 year ago # Report Post
Jenny
Member

Thank you for your replies. We already have some of the consequences you all mentioned: if they complain about food I tell them I hope the like the next meal made, things left in van = no things brought to van, trouble at bedtime = earlier bedtime the next night...

I think I may continue my "practice" as a consequence, so if something is left on the floor, they must need more practice picking things up. They will need to walk through the house and pick things up and put them where they belong.

Posted 1 year ago # Report Post

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